Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

If the people around you are of like mind you should have no problem. Otherwise, watch out.

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

Agreed, it depends on the quality of the numbers, not the quantity

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

If you're in position to form a small group when TSHTF, that's great. There really is safety in numbers, as well as division of work, etc. However, I would think you would know NOW who would be in that group. Don't be picking teams after the game has started. Everybody will want to play at that point.

Get your draft choices early. That last kid left on the bench is there for a reason.

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

Yep.....because try as you may, at SOME point, you have to sleep.

Personally, I'd like to have a group of like minded folks that would come to my valley in such a situation.

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

Its common sense. Even if your supplying all the food it may be well worth it.

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

Even when awake you are at risk without sentries. Can't do much gardening with a battle rifle over your shoulder...six adults who can shoot straight in teams of two for sentries at a minimum.
:wavey:

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

There is safety in numbers to a point, but at somepoint, the numbers become to great, and safety can start going the other direction.

I think the maximum size you might want for a SHTF community is a couple of hundred people. That group size is big enough to allow for a lot of specialization, but small enough to allow everyone in the community to know each other.

Beyond that safety could likely be further increased by maintaining good relatioins with other nearby communities.

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

Given the level of division of labor required to live any better than in a mud hut with a dirt floor, you'll need whatever social network you can get. That Austrian ice man from 5200 years ago had implements containing 17 sorts of wood -- he didn't make them himself, but traded for them. Adam Smith speculated that 5000 people contributed labor toward the manufacture of his coat. Eric Robert Rudolph lived off the land, if by lived off the land you mean that he bummed/stole food and supplies from people in remote towns.

You are your social network.

We have a member here who buries metals in his yard, stores gasoline by the tanker, stores food with armageddon in mind, and runs a multi-camera surveillance system on his property. When his septic system died the other day, he had no idea how to deal with it and almost got taken for $18K, nine times more than necessary, and was reduced to asking this forum for help. Nothing wrong with asking; just don't kid yourself by thinking that you're an island of self-sufficiency when you're not.

Dmitry Orlov wrote about surviving the collapse of the Soviet system, and touched on topics such as division of labor and social networks. I think his analysis is relevant to the future of the United States.

Part One
Part Two
Part Three

I agree with the above poster that a couple of hundred is optimal, in the case that we are fractured into small communities. But you had better pray that something larger economic activity persists as well, because the history of small, self-contained communities is not pretty: consider Biosphere II, and various experimental utopian communes which always end up begging for outside money, running into difficulties using humanure, and dealing with their members' realization that living small will not be luxurious.

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

Drill ? is ok to say my name, I don't mind......what you forgot to mention is that that night I hit the WWW in order to learn how the septic tank works and the next day told the guy exactly what was wrong after I went out there and poked around for a while......total final cost? $750.00 plus $40.00 tip for the two labor guys.

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

Well a farm is a long term plan, a stock pile of food is short term. In the short term going it alone might be a good idea, but in the long term you will want numbers.

I don't remeber where but I thought I remeber hearing that a person can live in a group of up to a 1000 while still knowing everyone in the group.

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

No Aric the ideal number is 250 and anything over 250 you open another village that will work with the first one......and over again.

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

Now the challenge is finding like minded responsible people near by. :chat:

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

Agree 100%.. Wait.. 110%.. 1100% on this post!

It's not about resources, stashes and preparations. It's about relations. All of it. How do we relate and cooperate with eachother? Guess it's old Charles 'Big Chuck' Darwin who will have the last word. Those who manage to adapt to given circumstances will be at an advantafe over those who who dont manage. Simple as that.

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

Have gun, will travel.:rofl:

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

One day a fairly intelligent fly buzzed around the web so long without lighting that the spider appeared and said, "Come on down." But the fly was too clever for him and said, "I never light where I don't see other flies and I don't see other flies in your house." So he flew away until he came to a place where there were a great many other flies. He was about to settle down among them when a bee buzzed up and said, "Hold it stupid, that's flypaper. All those flies are trapped." "Don't be silly," said the fly, "they're dancing." So he settled down and became stuck to the flypaper with all the other flies.


Moral: There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else.


James Thurber

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

Excellent post.

I myself prefer a small retreat with somewhere between 1 and 2 dozen combat ready persons, anicillary personel not included like grandparents to help cook, clean, wash garden, child care ect. ect.... some of these 'extras' may also be able to shoot from a static position, but aren't considered part of the 'combat ready' group that will pull gaurd duty and recon and any 'out side of the main house' offense/defense.

A group of a couple hundred in a nice comunity would be nice, but it's difficult to come up with that many people pre-shtf... atleast in respect to too many cheifs and not enough indians.... they almost inevitably turn into power struggle if they aren't set up as a cult... and who wants to live in a cult?

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

Definetly must be closely trusted, but numbers will help.

If your like me pick the up when they have nothing to loose.

They'll never turn their back on ya.

Well, most of the time.

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

You could wait untill after TSHTF, that way you won't pick anyone who is likely to get themself killed.

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

Security will not be in numbers.Not at the start
Any large group,no matter how well concealed they believe themselves to be,will naturally become a refuge magnet over night.
it will not matter how many times your group tells them to go away,they will congregate until they organize and make an attempt to take over.
It is the oasis theory.
For a chance at survival,you must be able to wait out the thinning of the herd.
The thinning of the herd will begin almost before the dust even settles.
I believe most here to be survival minded,and humane at the same time.this is not a good combinaton for survival.How many people can you take in and still survive?probably not many.I highly doubt many here have planned thier preps for more than half a dozen people.for every refuge taken in your supplies have diminished by 20%,of what they were.It won't be long before you are out.
How many here could turn away a young mother and two 2 year old children,who turn up at thier door after TSHTF?
Are you prepared to repel the public that wanders in by the smell of your camp fires?
How many cook fires does it take to feed 2 dozen people?
If you are starving,how keen do your senses become?
This is all just food for thought.
But my personal opinion is you prepare for yourself and those immediately with you,and no one else.
You wouldn't want to be the one family in town with power and lights on to your house while the rest of the neighborhood for miles around have been without for two or more weeks,would you?

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

Sure I would. You just turn off the lights to any rooms with windows in them. No matter how much stuff you have you can always use less or act like your using less.

If your able and your want to theres nothing wrong with stocking up enough for a dozen people. You just need to hide it, and if no one knows you got it, they won't come asking. Of course this is a lot harder if you got a farm or animals.

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

A relevant subject to this thread is the REALITY of Condominium Homeowner's Associations where neighbor suing neighbor is very very common. Read this and weep as you consider your "group" during real hard times:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...ation+lawsuits

People won't become better WTSHTF...not when you add firearms to the situation.
:smokin:

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

Safety in numbers? Yeah, if they're .45ACP, 7.62x39, .223... ;-)

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

:smile: The only like minded people I know of are here on GIM.

My neighbors are like Ponce's.
I will have to kill a few of them to hold on to what I have.
Support ? Non existant :Sorry:

Anything that enters my property is toast. They took their FRNs and bought a $40,000.00 SUV. I took what little I had and bought food and weapons.
They can all march down to the welfare office and demand debit cards from FEMA.I really don't give a crap :censored: .
Yeah,you got to sleep sometime,but two people can do serious damage to a crowd with a couple of full auto MAC 10's with 100 round clips,and I got plenty.
Unless they were my relatives they are off the radar screen and not to be trusted under any circumstances.
Sorry,I'll go it alone..........Trust no one.........:thumbs do

Best to all,

:cool2: RiverRat

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

:wink: Have gun also, will only travel if the ol 91' can get me to the secret destination:bandit:

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

Some of the issues that have been pointed out here were described in the story Ponce posted - I think it was called Lights Out. It is long but what an eye opener about how people and groups of people might behave in a SHTF senario. Wish I wasn't still a corporate slave.

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

I'm not worried about having the means... I'm worried about all members have the stomach to do what will need to be done come SHTF. There is that element none of us can totally prepare for until that time none of us can say with 100% certainty we can do it. I'd like to think I am 100%, but there's always that .00001% chance I just don't realize it, if I were to run into the right circumstances. Everyone has something.

Anyway, no refugees allowed. Period. If they find us, they get some water a few cups of rice and a 'come back and you'll only find hot lead'... If they seem like trouble rather than a family, well... no sense in letting them walk away only to come back, might as well take care of it then.

Thats really the only part of SHTF I'm not looking forward to. Working in the fields and forest, hunting, fishing... The 'mutant canabal looters' are the only real downside.

Ah well, I've always wanted to conduct better ballistics tests anyway. :cool2:

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

"Have gun will travel" that was from the tv series by the name of "Paladin".

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

It's all been done before.

Study the behavior of the white townies vs the natives, on or off a reservation. If the nearby group appeared slightly functional/viable, they were picked at or crushed with abandon, generally on false charges.

If you say that's the old days, same thing happened with communes in the 60's. The system hates competition and they have unlimited resources to throw at your community. The larger and more functional it is, the more they will hate it. Even if you can unite with local government, you go up a level to state/Provincial hazard.

What do you think the local police would do if you fired your Mini into a crowd of hungry undesireables? They'd be overjoyed for the excuse to come down, confiscate your goods and auction your land to one of their friends. Don't believe me? Read more history. That story is older than Cain.

Oasis effect with a twist. Live humble. Play nice. No matter what scenario you pick it will be years before enough people stop denial and start acting sense.

TS

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

"What do you think the local police would do if you fired your Mini into a crowd of hungry undesireables?"

In a SHTF scenario I believe the police would be overwhelmed / ineffective and not really care even if they knew you killed some intruders.

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

Care? No. Use the excuse to steal your stuff? Yes.

http://www.buildanark.net/survival_stories.html

Take your info from people whose S has already HTF.

Straight from the front lines of the biggest SHTF outside of Africa, whose neighbors were day-raped by a violent B&E, who can't stop in traffic for being hijacked and shot, and who is armed and in danger 24/7: "Forget about shooting those that mean you harm from 300 yards away with your MBR. Leave that notion to armchair commandos and 12 year old kids that pretend to be grown ups on the internet."

Despite the known chaotic situation, this gentleman STILL had to walk down to his car and confront a possibly armed car thief face-to-face rather than shoot him at 300 yards with his FAL. Who has enough money to pay the bribes to cover that heat? You could buy boxes of .308 and a vest with those bribes. ...And he says as much to anyone who will listen.

Not getting in your face, but you have to understand everything will be worse than you can imagine in SHTF. Worse than war, worse than inner city. All of the above and worse. Worse no one will know where they are, who to hit, or who to pay off. You must, must, must read on Serbia, Grozny, Germany, Argentina, Columbia, Monrovia, Rowanda to understand what the ground effects would be. This is not army and not Special Forces. It's being a family storekeeper in an FARC/Mexican drug cartel border corruption type worse worse worse. Dozens of groups will have more arm-twisting and more firepower than you will have. There will be no safe place. Totally different pattern and preparation here than in a plague/starvation or conventional war.

TS

"There is no solution to be found to our disagreements by shooting each other. There is no real invader here We are all Irish in all our different kinds of ways We must not, now or ever in the future, show anything to each other except tolerance, forbearance and neighbourly love"

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

I am more afraid of the cops than of the looters, the looters you shoot at will but a cop can get right next to you and if he is a bad one then do what he will.

Hummmmmmm I din't really think of that, have to get myself a sheriff uniform.......already have a couple of uniforms for some other government agencies plus decals for my RAV 4.

Nawwwwww to old for the sheriff uniform.

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

You guys must have more exposure to rural folk than city dwellers or something, because ya'll have a LOT more faith and confidence in flesh and blood than I do.

The social order in western civilization is already breaking down. Catastrophic economic events will only make people behave FAR WORSE than they do now. Do you really trust them around your firearms, food, water, and other stuff? I sure as Hell don't.

Short-term, you're better off with a small circle of close, well-known, and trusted family members and friends. And be prepared to keep moving if need be.

Long-term, those of us who won't submit and take the Mark will all be dead, regardless.

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

There would be three times as many police when TSHTF. It wil be easy to recruit them because they will be rewarded with what they confiscate. What better way to feed yourself and your family than to become an authoritarian JBT?

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

I know and that's why I wrote that I was to old, at this time I have two uniforms for two different government agencies.....one of them is nothing more than a white painters coveralls with head cover and the nuclear symbol in the chest and back together with the same for my RAV4....with that and a container while holding a noise radiation detector will keep people away form me.

Is easy to find the proper ID for different agencies in the web and them make very realistic reproductions with the color printers that we have now days.

The time to do all that is now while the going is good and not later WTSHTF.

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

I worry about trying to organize or get involved in anything big. The more you call attention to yourself, the more problems you get with the goverment and/or others. Like it or not, what happened in Waco was a good example.

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

Well Ardent that's why I have a underground tunnel going from my house to 100 feet awa from it and that's what those at Waco should had done.

Not only does it give you a way to scape but in my case a way to try and come from elsewhere and attack the enemy.


Off topic....CCTV China, there are 316 MILLIONS mobile phone being used in China....... China exported 220 MILLIONS mobile phones last year.

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

I don't know, you may be able to pay off most government people. Cops and stuff wont go to the trouble if there is a quick and easy way to make money. And big government isn't going to consider you a threat if you keep the money comming.

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

Or the bullets, I wont be alone.

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

With #s mobility is seriously decreased.......if the Gov. goes looking for wild eyed pistol waving "terrorists"..they will bypass 1000 REAL terrorist to find a few white GIM types to hose off with dr rounds......jmho....

when tshtf......it will be PLANNED! Anarchy will prevail only as long as the ptb WANT it to.....then they will use those camps ,not for real terrorists but
those who will NOT submit to their agenda.....yes........ that means YOU Hoarder:rofl: ......(keep that coach gun handy)
'

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

Thats a fact Jack! :eek:

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

Something I have given a bit of thought about but still need to do more. The problem is it really is extremely situational. If you were planning on staying in one place then a larger group maybe 50-100 might be best so you would have the man power to farm, recon, defend your land etc.... But there are also problems with groups this size because there my end up being divisions and power struggles within the group. You also make yourself more noticable to the government or whatever warlord contols the area. (look at parts of africa for example).

A smaller group is more flexable and mobile of course and you won't have to worry about as many people stabbing you in the back. But then of course you will lose the defensive/offensive power of a larger group.

The one thing I can say for sure is that you need to find people ahead of time that you can trust because once the SHTF your not going to be able to trust peoples character and motivations.

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

NO

if there's a major SHTF
my number 1 priority will be getting out of the city
and sitting in my BOL for at least 1 month, ALONE

i expect anyone/everyone to be fighting for whatever foods/supplies are to be found
and then when i do wander out from my BOL
whoever i meet will have my respect and caution

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

The question makes no sense. It is normal for neighbors to cooperate in defending their neighborhood. What's important is whether you can trust your neighbors, not how many of them there are.

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

there well be about 10 at my place in three small cabins an a trailer camper , i think we are close to having all we need , but who know ever time i think that a few more thing come up , just got a new chain saw to go with the older ones , ex chains for all saws , three more water tanks , just need a few more months an i think we well be close to being able to meat are needs there

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

This is a cool thread... keep it rocking

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

"Upon waking from a 14-hour sleep, Phillip II of Macedonia was questioned by a scribe how he could possibly sleep that long while trying to achieve military conquest of all Greece. Phillip II replied: 'Ah, yes, I slept soundly, for even as I slept, Antiphon was awake.'"

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

Sorry to bring this to your attention but the largest capacity magazine for the Mac 10 in 45ACP is 50 rounds.

Unless you made a larger cap magazine yourself. :ok:

I would love larger than a 50 round cap mag but haven't been able to find them.

Link me to them if you are able.

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

Who you expectin' . . . Janet Reno and the ATF? :bear_tongue:

I'm glad I no longer live in the US. I'd rather be where I am right now (NZ) . . . than in a large, heavily populated country with foreign borders and 300 million+ guns. I like living down in the ass end of the world surrounded by sheep and ocean. :biggrin:

However, if all those folks unite to over turn the mess and restore The Constitution and The Bill Of Rights . . . then that would be awesome . . . not to mention a real inspiration for freedom around the world.

I wonder if TSHTF will end with a reinvigorated, re-constitutionalized America?

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

watch it - your dating yourself

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

Sure and we will put all of the politicians and illuminati in the FEMA Camps.

Dream on.

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

All -

There is no safety in numbers.

Then again,

There is no safety in being being alone.

Given normal societal parameters.

So you are saying, exactly,

What?


scyth

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

there is safety in numbers only until the food runs out...

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

I vote yes, but not unconditionally.

Post collapse, the most robust social unit will be the armed, intact, socially repressive, patriarchal, clan.

Good luck trying to find one.

But yes, there can be safety in numbers . . . if the numbers are bound by kinship and traditional values.

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

I would stand beside any GIM member before I stood beside 99.9% of the general public.

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

United we stand. Divided we fall.

Re: Safety in numbers after SHTF?
 

...bring all your friends that have guns.